(By Mr. Croker.) Being asked whether you were not at Mrs. C.'s yesterday, you answered that you had been there about nine o'clock in the evening; were you not at Mrs. C.'s house at any prior hour of yesterday? I called at Mrs. C.'s yesterday morning, she was not at home; I returned in the evening, and had a conversation with her for a few minutes. Did you merely call at Mrs. C.'s house; did you not go into it, and wait a very considerable time at Mrs. C.'s house? I was up in Mrs. ❘ C.'s drawing-room for some time in the morning, I did not see her then, but I saw her in the afternoon. WILLIAM ADAM, esq. was again examined in his place, as follows: (By Mr. Wilberforce.) the payments. From the circumstance of the D. of Y. being a mere annuitant, and from other causes, which I should be extremely glad to explain, to render my evidence intelligible, particularly from one cause, that in the arrangement of his estates he had cast upon him the expence of a large inclosure, which by Act of Parliament he was bound to see executed, which took a great deal of money, and his being under the necessity of buying tithes to a large amount, together with the property tax coming on him, we were not enabled to operate the redemption of the debts by the payment of 12,000l. a year, it was therefore the D. of Y.'s wish to appropriate a larger sum; this was done and it is still to go to a greater extent in the hands of Mr. Coutts and myself, for the same purposes. These are the monies which come within my management, and no other. I know nothing about the D. of Y.'s private expenditure; I know nothing about the pension he pays to any one, but only the fund raised for the payment of debts, and also that for the reduc Having mentioned the annuity which was conditionally promised, can you state whether that annuity was actually paid; and, if so, for ❘tion of the debt he owes to the Public, a sum how long? I can state nothing respecting the payment; I had nothing at all to do with it; I never heard any thing of it from the time when I had the second and last interview. You have stated, that the annuity was to be continued so long as Mrs. C.'s conduct was correct; will you have the goodness to explain that term? The term I used I meant in this sense; that her conduct was to be such as not to have any reference to any pecuniary transactions, such as I stated to have been the cause of the investigation, and the subject of the subsequent communication to her by me, that the D. of Y. was to have no further connection with her; and I stated in my evidence, that at that time, nor at any time till recently, had I any notion that there were any transactions of this kind in which she had been in any way concerned: Those pecuniary concerns to which I alluded, were the use of the D. of Y.'s name for the purpose of raising money, so as to involve his credit and character, but not by the sale of commissions. (By Mr. Beresford.) Do you mean by getting in debt with tradesmen, and borrowing money? Any mode by which she could raise money. Did you continue, from the year 1806, to have the management of h. r. h.'s finances, and his money concerns? I had not, properly speaking, the management of any part of h. r. h.'s. But I wish to mention this to the House; the D. of Y., from causes which it is unnecessary to refer to, found his circumstances embarrassed; at a very early period, he applied to me to look into them, and to get matters arranged: he appropriated to that arrangement, as soon as his income was such as to enable him to afford it, a very large sum of money, annually, 12,000 l. a-year, that was put ander the administration of Mr. Coutts and myself, as trustees for the creditors, to settle lent to him from the Civil List, when Mr. Pitt was Minister, and which Mr. Pitt and other Ministers suspended the payment of to a certain time, and which was last year begun to be paid: a fund was vested in me for the payment of 4,000l. a year of that; this will extend to the sum of from 26 to 30,000/. a year; and when it is considered that the income tax falls upon that, as well as the whole of his other property, I believe that h. r. h. will be found to give up as large a sum of money as his present circumstances will afford. These are the only funds which fall under my knowledge; and therefore it is impossible for me to know whether a pension is paid to this or that person, and it is not correct to suppose that I am in the administration of his affairs further than I have stated. Did Mrs. C. apply to you at any time since 1806 for payment of this pension? It is extremely difficult for me to state positively that, she did not, but I believe the two letters which she mentions are the only letters I have ever received from her. I cannot undertake to say, in the variety of transactions I have, that there were no others; the prominent letter was that of the 11th June 1808, which I immediately indorsed, and delivered over to Mr. Wilkinson. EXAMINATION OF COLONEL GORDON. (By the Attorney General.) Do you hold any office under the Commander in Chief? Yes, I do. What is it? His Military or Public Secretary. Does the business of exchanging commissions pass through your office? It does. Can any transaction of that nature pass without your knowledge? It is quite impossible. Do all the documents by which the persons, who apply to exchange, are recommended, pass through your office? They do. Do they pass first under your examination and consideration? Generally; I night almost say always. Do you report the result to the Commander in Chief? Most undoubtedly, without fail. How long have you held the office that you do at present? About four years and a half. Did you hold it in 1805? I did. When any exchange has obtained the approbation of the Commander in Chief, is there a minute made of it? Always. After that are the commissions made out pursuant to that minute? After an exchange, or any commission has obtained the approbation of the Commander in Chief, it is immediately submitted to the consideration of his Majesty; after his Majesty's approbation and signature has been affixed to the paper so submitted, it is sent to the Secretary at War, for the purpose of having commissions made out corresponding to the naine placed in that paper previously submitted to the King, and then to be put in the Gazette. You stated, that you keep an account of all the applications that are made for promotion or for exchange, and that that is preserved in the office? I did state so. Could you, upon any other occasion, with reference to any other exchange, as you have with reference to this, find the memorandum which denoted the time at which the approbation of the Commander in Chief was procured? Yes, I think I could, with the same facility with which I have put my hand upon this. Are you able to state who recommended col. K. and col. B. for that exchange? This paper, with your permission, I will read; it will speak for itself. Col. Gordon read, and then delivered in, a 1 Cox to himself, dated Craig's-court, July 1st, 1805 (a). Is it your course, upon a recommendation of this sort being put in, to inquire into the merits of the applicants? Most undoubtedly, in every case; but particularly in the case of field officers of regiments. Is it your course to report to the Commander in Chief the result of those inquiries? Invariably. Are the commissions also signed by his Majesty before they are gazetted? No, perhaps I should explain, that they are made out in the war-office after the gazetting; the gazetting is the immediate act following the signature of the King, a notification to the army, that his Ma-ted, than that which you have drawn, has it al jesty has approved of those appointments, and he desires his Secretary at War to prepare the commissions accordingly: they are made out more at leisure. You will see mentioned in the Gazette the exchange between col. Knight and col. Brooke; when did that exchange receive the approbation of the Commander in Chief? On the 23d of July 1805. When you say that that approbation took place on the 23rd of July 1805, you refer to some document in your hand; is that any inemoran dum made in your office? It is. Is it the course of your office, that, when the approbation of the Cominander in Chief is signified, there should be a memorandum made of it? I think I may say invariably. Was the approbation of the Commander in Chief to this exchange finally obtained on the 23rd of July? It was. Do you keep records in the office, of all the applications that are made for promotions or exchanges? Yes, I do, very carefully; and every paper of every kind, and every sort, that comes into that office, I preserve with the greatest possible care. Is that paper which you hold in your hand, the original document which is brought from your office? Yes, it is. That which you hold in your hand being the original document which you brought from the office, is it also the document to which you just looked, and declared that the approbation of the Cominander in Chief was obtained on the 23d? Yes; it is the only paper I have looked at since I entered this House, except the Ga When the Commander in Chief has ever drawn a different conclusion upon the facts sta ways been his course to assign to you a reason (a) BROOKE'S SERVICES. Cornet, 8 Das Maj. 96 Placed on Half-pay- Maj. 56 29 June 93 * C. L. cannot be acceded to, h. r. h. does not approve of the exchange proposed. * 23 July 05, h. r. h. does now approve of this exchange. Sir; By direction of gen. Norton, we have the honour to inclose a form, signed by brevet lieut. col. Brooke of the 56th reg. to exchange with brevet lieut. col. Knight of the 5th dragoon guards, together with a copy of a letter from lieut. col. Knight, stating that he is satisfied with the security given for payment of the | regulated difference between the value of the two commissions; and being informed the counterpart of the exchange has been sent in through the Agents of the 5th Dragoon Guards, you will be pleased to submit the same to field marshal h. r. h. the duke of York. We have the honour to be, &c. zette. GREENWOOD & Cox. Craig's-court, 1st July 1805. * The words in Italics are in' Pencil-Marks in the Original. for that? I think he has; but if he did not, I should most undoubtedly have taken the liberty to have asked him. Where, in such a case, no reason has been assigned, are you certain that you have always asked him? Most undoubtedly. In this case, have you any doubt that you made the necessary inquiries upon the representations made to you by this memorial? None, whatever; I am quite positive that I did do so. Was the ultimate approbation of this exchange the result of those inquiries? I firmly believe so. Do you firmly believe that it was in consequence of your report to h. r. h. ? Yes, most decidedly I do. If b. r. h., in approving this exchange, had acted otherwise than according to your report, is it possible that that fact could have escaped your memory? It is some time since this exchange took place; but I am much in the habit of transacting business of this kind, and I do not think that it could have escaped my memory. Would it have struck you as an extraordinary and unusual transaction, if the Commander in Chief had acted contrary to the result that was drawn from the communications made by you, without assigning any reason for it? Unless h. r. h. had assigned a reason for it, it certainly would have struck me as very extraordinary. Have you any doubt, upon refreshing your memory as well as you can, by all the papers you have, and recalling the facts to your recollection, that the approbation of h. r. h. was gained to this exchange, as the result of the memorial presented to you and the inquiries made by yourself, and communicated to h. r. h. ? I cannot doubt it for a moment. ped? To the best of my recollection, it was stopped upon this ground; upon referring to the services of the respective officers, as is invariably the practice, I found that the services of lieut. col. Brooke, for the last seven years, had been upon the half-pay; consequently, it became necessary to make more than usual inquiries respecting col. Brooke, before he could be recommended for the situation of Major to a regiment of cavalry; when those inquiries were made, and I was satisfied that col. Brooke was a fit and proper person, I made that report to the Commander in Chief; and as I have said before, I believe it was upon my report so made, that the Commander in Chief acceded to the exchange. Are you quite sure that there was no difficulty or rub on the part of col. Knight? I am perfectly sure; if the house will permit me I will read my answer to col. Knight upon this subject. [Col. Gordon read, and then delivered in, a letter from himself to col. Knight, dated the 21st June 1805-viz.] "Horse Guards, 21 June 1805. "Sir; Having laid before the Commander "in Chief your letter of the 19 instant, I am "directed to acquaint you that h. r. h. has no "objection to your exchanging to the Infantry, "receiving the difference; and when an eligi" ble successor can be recommended, your re"quest will be taken into consideration, &c. I am "(Signed) J. W. GORDON. "B Lt col. Knight. 5 Dgn Gas." The eligibility, therefore, must have depended upon col. Brooke. Then I am to understand from you that col. Knight had made an application to exchange, previous to this memorial presented by Greenwood and Cox, in the name of general Norton? This representation, I observe, is made on the 1st of July, and it is not completed till the | Yes, he had. 23d; do you find that there was any delay in bringing the business to a conclusion, and that it was at first stopped? Yes, there was; and it was stopped. Are you now able to state, from your recollection, upon what ground it was at first stop I beg you will be pleased to obtain for me his majesty's permission to exchange with brevet it col. Knight of the 5th Dragoon Guards. In case his majesty shall be graciously pleased to perinit me to make the said exchange, I do hereby declare and certify, upon the word and honour of an officer and a entleman, that. I will not, either now or at any future time, give, by any means or in any shape whatever, directly or indirectly, any more than the regulated difference. I have the honour to be, &c. W. BROOKE.-B Lt col. & Major 56 ft. To the colonel, or commanding officer, of the 56 regiment. I approve of the above exchange, and, I verily believe, no clandestine bargain subsists between the parties concerned. VOL. XII. C. NORTON, Colonel. And that by this letter of the 21st of June, it was signified to him, that his proposal was accepted; that is that the exchange so far as regarded him was accepted, if an eligible successor was found? Certainly. You are satisfied that the delay arose from the doubt with respect to col. Brooke? I have so stated it. Have you any doubt that you pursued the necessary inquiries for clearing up that difficulty? None, whatever. Have you any doubt that the approbation of the Commander in Chief was ultimately obtained, in consequence of those inquiries having cleared up the difficulty ? None, whatever; I understood that I had stated that before. Was there any greater delay in this case, than was necessary for the purpose of prosecuting such inquiries? None, whatever; similar delays occur in similar transactions, almost every week. Was there any thing, from the beginning to the end of this transaction, which distinguishes it from other transactions of the same sort, relative to the same kind of exchanges? Certainly not; I was much surprised when I heard X 1 of the difficulty first started in this honourable | of that officer that required more than common house, about three nights ago. Do you recollect instances upon the part of the Commander in Chief, since you have been in office, tending to create a greater expedition than the necessary course of official business permits? Never in the current business of the office. I beg to explain to the house; the common business of army promotions is laid before the King once a week, and never twice a week, when any expedition is fitted out, and that officers are suddenly appointed to such expeditions; then and then only a separate paper is submitted to his Majesty, with their names exclusively, and they are not included in the common weekly paper. Are the committee to understand, that, in the ordinary course of military promotion or exchange, the office is always permitted to take its course? Invariably; I never recollect an instance to the contrary. You have stated that col. B. had been for seven years on half-pay; in proportion to the length of time that an officer has been upon half-pay, and consequently been moved out of sight from ordinary military observation, is it not necessary that there should be a much longer period of inquiry to discover what his conduct has been? Perhaps it may be so, but I cannot exactly say that, as I am in the habit of seeing 20, 30 and 40 officers in the army almost every day in my life; and generally, from some of those, I can ascertain particulars respecting any officer I choose, and that without letting them know the purpose for which I require it. Was the period of time required for this exchange beyond the ordinary period in such cases? Certainly not. (By the Attorney General.) Did the Commander in Chief ever state to you, or did you ever hear that he thought that one of these persons, either col. K. or col. B. was a bad subject? I never heard him express any such thing. Can you take upon yourself to say, that no opinion of the Commander in Chief's, that one of these was a bad subject, was the occasion of any delay in the completing this exchange? Yes, I certainly can; the Commander in Chief is very cautious in expressing himself so strongly on the conduct of any officer: if the Commander in Chief was to express himself so strongly npon the conduct of any officer, I should conweive that there was something in the conduct inquiry. Then are the Committee to understand, that no more nor further delay took place, than that which was necessary to complete the inquiries, which you thought it your duty to make? Certainly. As you were in office at that time, supposing the negotiation between col. K. and col. B. to have gone off in consequence of the objection made to col. B., or from any other cause; was it probable that col. K. might have had to wait some time before he might have had another eligible opportunity of making an exchange? Yes, I think he might. What day of the week is it that the lists are generally sent in to the King? They are commonly submitted by me to the Commander in Chief on Wednesday; they are submitted to the King on Thursday; and if they come back on Friday (which nine times in ten they do) they are gazetted on Saturday; if they do not come back in time on Friday, they are gazetted on the following Tuesday. Did you keep any memorandum of the inquiries you made respecting the exchange between col. K. and col. B.? None, whatever. You have stated that the application to the Commander in Chief for this exchange was communicated on the 23d of July; when was that application to the Commander in Chief submitted for his Majesty's approbation? The date is accurately marked upon the original paper: it was submitted to the King upon the 24th, as you will find, by reference to the paper on the table. When did it appear in the Gazette? The Gazette is dated July 30th. Then the approbation of the Commander in Chief was signified seven days before it appeared in the Gazette? Allow me to mark this distinction: the approbation of the Commander in Chief is never signified to any body, until the king's pleasure has been subsequently obtained upon it. I understood the Commander in Chief consented to this exchange on the 23d; that on the 23d it was known to you; that you then prepared the proper communication to be laid before his Majesty, but that communication was submitted to his Majesty on the 24th; that on the 24th his Majesty signified his approbation, and that it did not appear in the Gazette till the 30th, being seven days after the Commander in Chief had given his consent, and six days after his Majesty had confirmed that consent? Exactly: I beg it may be understood, that after his Majesty's signature is affixed to a paper of promotions, it is part of my duty to make such of them public as may be necessary. The Gazette is a notification, but it is not a rafication; the thing is finally done before it pears in the Gazette. You have stated, that being in the habit of seeing twenty, thirty, or more different officers, every day, you take a proper opportunity of collecting from them the character and conduet Between the first of July, when the application was made on behalf of col. B., and the 23d, when it received the sanction of the Commander in Chief, did any conversation pass be tween yourself and the Commander in Chief, otherwise than that which originated in your addressing yourself to the Duke upon the subject in the ordinary course of office? To the best of my recollection, certainly not; I speak more decidedly upon this point, because I am in the habit of laying numbers of papers before the Commander in Chief, and of confining my conversation strictly and exclusively to the matter before us. Ifhis Majesty's approbation was received on Wednesday, why was it not notified in the Saturday's Gazette? I think I have said before, that if the papers were returned from his Majesty in time, it would have been gazetted on the next day; I take for granted, therefore, that they were not returned in time. What space of time was there between your making your report of the inquiries made by you respecting col. B., and the D. of Y.'s directing you to make out the necessary papers for the king's inspection? I think I have stated that I received the expression of the Commander in Chief's pleasure on the 23d; the papers were made out for his Majesty on the 24th. What time elapsed between your making the report of the inquiries respecting col. B. to the Commander in Chief, and the Commander in Chief giving his consent? A reference to the paper on the table will explain the dates. Did you make your report on the same morning that the Commander in Chief gave his consent, and directed you to make out the necessary papers? I beg pardon, but I do not comprehend that question. When did you state the result of your inquiries respecting col. B.? I have already stated, that I made my report to the Commander in Chief on the 23d, and received his pleasure upon it. member who had brought forward this question intended to pursue. He trusted the hon. gent. would be ready to bring forward his next charge on Friday. Indeed, he was aware, after what had already transpired, the examination of the other Witnesses could not be drawn into any great length. At all events, it was most desirable that no unnecessary delay should intervene. Mr. Wardle was as desirous as any gentleman could be, that the business might be proceeded in with every possible dispatch. It would however be necessary for him to wait the arrival from Spain of several essential witnesses, among others capt. Huxley Sandon, and maj.-gen. French. Indeed, he could not well say when they might arrive, as no return having been made of the killed and wounded, it was even impossible to say whether they were living or not. Lord Castlereagh observed, that by sending the names of the officers intended to be called as witnesses, to the war-office, it might easily be ascertained whether they had arrived or not, or whether it was likely they might soon arrive. Mr. S. Bourne could not forbear expressing his surprise and regret that any hon. member should have been so precipitate in giving notice of a motion, and in laying down the grounds of it, before he had ascertained whether the witnesses which were to be called to substantiate his charges were or were not in readiness to attend. Was it of so light and inconsiderate a thing, to insinuate such serious charges against any individual, much less an individual of the high rank and station of the Commander in Chief, without having the immediate means of proving whether they were well founded or not? Mr. William Adam contended, that no man had ever been exposed to a case more severe and cruel than that in which the hon. gent. had so hastily involved his royal highness the duke of York. Where was the urgent haste which impelled the Upon casting your eye over the Tuesday's Gazette, can you tell whether there are any promotions or exchanges in the Tuesday's Ga- | hon. gent. to give notice of a motion, con zette which received his Majesty's approbation at the same time as the exchange in question? I beg to state, that I firmly believe it is the usual practice, at least, that every exchange, and promotion, and appointment, went in the same paper before the King. Colonel Gordon's examination here concluded. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was anxious to know what course the hon. : taining such grave matter of accusation against so exalted a personage, before he knew whether the evidence he was to call, in proof of his charges, not only were in the country, but even whether they were in existence or not? Could any thing be more cruel than that calumnies should remain upon the characters of those who perhaps had fallen in their country's cause, and upon him who had promoted them, |
